Post by irrational on Jun 1, 2008 17:43:37 GMT
Guru Fateh,
We had some discussion on this subject earlier, however, it seems to gone cold. There are things about sexuality and the rest of the baggage that comes with it, specially for Sikhs that are worth spending some time on.
Just like other numerous things sexual mores change with a changing society, Sikhism is a young religion and probably one set up by the Gurus as progressive school of thought for its time. Almost every custom or behavior that did not make sense was removed, can you imagine being cast less, Sikhs have not risen to that level as a society in five hundred odd years yet this was one of the founding principles. It probably will be fair to say that an average Sikh follows what ever is convenient and sweeps other things under the rug.
In the old times infant mortality rates were high and population pressure on the planet was nothing like today. So there was stress on having as many children as possible. In the modern industrialized world that has changed drastically, most of Europe has been a zero population growth region for a while, educated folks in India also rarely have more than one or two kids. There has been a sea change in sexual behavior, sexuality and its expression. Who would have thought of discussing problems and stigma faced by gay individual (of what ever hue) 500 years ago. In the information driven world it is impossible to sweep such things under the rug yet Sikh Society in general and Clergy in particular want bury their head in the sand.
Sex primarily has become an expression of ones personality and is more for enjoyment than procreation. There probably are not very many individuals on the planet that have had only one partner during their lifetime. The change in sexual behavior has broken all the previous boundaries and continues to push the envelop. Definition of Love between couples has also evolved. Partners are not as possessive as even just 60 or 70 years ago and and can not afford to be. sex no longer seems to be as restricted as it historically has been. In other words, the genie is out of the bottle and can not be put back into the bottle aagain. Individuals seem to have their own limits and boundaries regarding sex, and certainly there is no uniform norm out there any more. In the West it is more out in the open and in the East it is still somewhat discreet. I have many Sikh friends in India most of them admit to outside marriage and gay individuals are even more free, because at least in India, there is no sanctioned gay marriage and individuals do have multiple partners some times even simultaneously. Sure this is no scientific survey, but is certainly true for a group of educated, successful individuals with well functioning families and most of them consider themselves Sikhs (if not devout, in the conventional sense) and go to Gurudwaras regularly and also do their Nitnem.
The fundamental question I want to ask is, how, who and what determines/controls the sexual behavior of individuals and the society. Where does one draw the line particularly for the Sikhs. What differentiates normal sex (if there is some such thing any more) and lust regardless of sexual orientation. Sikhs, as other societies, have a lot of freedom today, they can and do determine their own personal limits in such matters. If two consenting individuals decide to have sex because they know and like each, without hurting themselves or any one else (there does not have to be a cloak or pretense of great philosophy or intellectual understanding behind this) it is just that moment that may happen between two individuals is that lust or just deeper friendship and greater openness of mind and spirit or may be even is just sex for the sake of sex. Where is the limit?
It has been a long ramble, however, I hope that I have been able to put forward a genuine question, that probably bothers a lot of Sikhs.
Surd
This brings me to the diktats of the Sikh religion the
We had some discussion on this subject earlier, however, it seems to gone cold. There are things about sexuality and the rest of the baggage that comes with it, specially for Sikhs that are worth spending some time on.
Just like other numerous things sexual mores change with a changing society, Sikhism is a young religion and probably one set up by the Gurus as progressive school of thought for its time. Almost every custom or behavior that did not make sense was removed, can you imagine being cast less, Sikhs have not risen to that level as a society in five hundred odd years yet this was one of the founding principles. It probably will be fair to say that an average Sikh follows what ever is convenient and sweeps other things under the rug.
In the old times infant mortality rates were high and population pressure on the planet was nothing like today. So there was stress on having as many children as possible. In the modern industrialized world that has changed drastically, most of Europe has been a zero population growth region for a while, educated folks in India also rarely have more than one or two kids. There has been a sea change in sexual behavior, sexuality and its expression. Who would have thought of discussing problems and stigma faced by gay individual (of what ever hue) 500 years ago. In the information driven world it is impossible to sweep such things under the rug yet Sikh Society in general and Clergy in particular want bury their head in the sand.
Sex primarily has become an expression of ones personality and is more for enjoyment than procreation. There probably are not very many individuals on the planet that have had only one partner during their lifetime. The change in sexual behavior has broken all the previous boundaries and continues to push the envelop. Definition of Love between couples has also evolved. Partners are not as possessive as even just 60 or 70 years ago and and can not afford to be. sex no longer seems to be as restricted as it historically has been. In other words, the genie is out of the bottle and can not be put back into the bottle aagain. Individuals seem to have their own limits and boundaries regarding sex, and certainly there is no uniform norm out there any more. In the West it is more out in the open and in the East it is still somewhat discreet. I have many Sikh friends in India most of them admit to outside marriage and gay individuals are even more free, because at least in India, there is no sanctioned gay marriage and individuals do have multiple partners some times even simultaneously. Sure this is no scientific survey, but is certainly true for a group of educated, successful individuals with well functioning families and most of them consider themselves Sikhs (if not devout, in the conventional sense) and go to Gurudwaras regularly and also do their Nitnem.
The fundamental question I want to ask is, how, who and what determines/controls the sexual behavior of individuals and the society. Where does one draw the line particularly for the Sikhs. What differentiates normal sex (if there is some such thing any more) and lust regardless of sexual orientation. Sikhs, as other societies, have a lot of freedom today, they can and do determine their own personal limits in such matters. If two consenting individuals decide to have sex because they know and like each, without hurting themselves or any one else (there does not have to be a cloak or pretense of great philosophy or intellectual understanding behind this) it is just that moment that may happen between two individuals is that lust or just deeper friendship and greater openness of mind and spirit or may be even is just sex for the sake of sex. Where is the limit?
It has been a long ramble, however, I hope that I have been able to put forward a genuine question, that probably bothers a lot of Sikhs.
Surd
This brings me to the diktats of the Sikh religion the