Post by asianvibe on Dec 28, 2008 4:01:20 GMT
Hello
Ok a few thoughts and questions - please illuminate me if you can.
I'm quite Sikh culturally more than religiously I like the Sikh concept of Seva and its one of the least prescriptive religions although I smoke but my dad reckons thats becuase Guru Gobind Singh fell in front of a tabacco field and broke his leg and we smokers got penalised ever since - no, I think while intoxicants are seen as ok in moderation inhaling tobacco is seen as a pollutant.
Sikhism treis to avoid being prescriptive as I understand is not prescriptive around sexuality as I thought the Guru Granth Sahib says 'live the life of a householder' - i.e have a relationship and live with other people and don't go for any monastic existence because its not good for you're mind. My question is why are the marriage rituals so geared towards hetrosexuals ? I thought the whole concept of living the life of a householder did not mean that you had to be with a hetrosexual or does it. - I was always proud of Sikhism being one of the most progressive religions for that reason but a mate said thats not the case but couldn't explain it. Can you?
A few random thoughts and my experience.
I grew up inEngland til I was 15 then spent a year in India and came out there becuase it was easier!
Culturally my family in India although I'm British are well aware of homosexuality and in my Ma's village there are few queers and everyone knows who they are and who they are having relationships with - its an interdependent culture so as far as know- no-one can afford to alienate anyone, particulary boys because its sexist culture and they stay at home and girls move on.
Whether they approve or disaaprove, is homphobia much more a feature of urban life than rural. I wonder is that because a feature of urban life is more about labels or codification in all sorts ways governing social relationships in any culture- i.e all of sudden to want to say what your not and define 'normal'.
I have not seen people hiding their queerness in my grannies village. Yes I definately would say hetrosexism with a large dose of histroical muslim orthodxy defines relationships which oppress men nd women in northern Punjabi Sikhi Pindu life and caste than anything necessarily to do with sexuality. But in my grannies village- its an old ambling culture where one day is like the next, everyone farms of a particular caste and the old ones have seen it all but don't walk round judging queerness, they appreciate both a woman can bond with another and so can a man- an accetance of the dynamics of sexuality and how it change.
Like I said they are far more obsessed with caste and sexism and money than if someone is queer and then the only worry is how will they have kids.
I found my mum & dad's generation much more open about sexuality than this so called educated population that see being queer as some kind of sickness or a sin?
In a way I wonder if the non-judgemental attitude Sikhism finds it expressed in this the village context a kind of innocence and openness with many people I find there. I grew up in England and spent a year with my granny in a pind and came out far more easily than I did here where I was shit scared incase someone kicked my head in a school and where being queer had no validation in mainstream society or legally.
Were is the cross-over here religiously and culturally - So people are often suprised when I say it was easier for me to come out in a village in India in the late 70's than come out here and it was understood as being quite normal - especially as I fancied the pants of some of the Kuri's and my hormones were kicking in so i couldn't hide it. But what I find in the 21st Century is that villagers are becoming more homophobic where they weren't before? Everyone is pretty chilled out and cool apart from being obsessed about having kids.
My mum said why couldn't I find a Jatt gay man to have kids with. That could have been construed as her homophobia but really most parents regardless of sexuality gay or straight want their kids in some kind of a relationship and have off-spring- the lack of knowledge or exposure to them can be translated as being anti queer but my aunts were fascinated when I told them of the various methods d*kes use to have a babies and how many straight women are using those techniques too, being straight but choosing to have children with freinds or their sisters by passing straight men all together in terms of a relationship around the kids or having sex with them to have it. I think they thought it was great and wished they had that choice and said the have relationship with men primarily to have kids.
Unfortuantely the idea of homosexuality being a sin was introduced as far as I know by the British Raj to mirror Victorian values which made it illegal in India and thats how it entered the penal code. - so hence India took a step back even though challenges are being made to the Indian penal code in this respect in the last few years.
Another thing......are the Lama's - don't know if thats how to spell the name of the ritual- (its the one where you walk around 4 times to get married) that are performed - is it a cultural thing a man walking in front of a woman or religious. Could two men or two women do the same and would we walk togther or one in front of the other and who would tie the old knot to the towel. Is this practice of the ftaher or brother tying the not religious or cultural? Am confused - does that mean we can all have Lama's if we chose to as Queers and tell the Sikh priest find that bit in the guru Granth that says it has to be with someone of the opposit sex? we need a gay Gudwara ! Yes I know we'd be bombed by religious zealots but I met Sikh Gay Priests they tell me just how many there are knocking around in temples so could we find a few freindly ones and set one up?!
When I was little aparrantly I was just 6 years old at the time - whilst pulling on my plat I declared to my mum I anted to marry a girl and could she find one for me - an arranged marriage with a big wedding at the Gudwara! I'd like that dream to be a reality for many Gay Sikh Women - not necessarily arranged although I'm sure many women may choose that option - so we could have a few postives to grow up with and not be petrified and saddened that my fairytale of marrying my princess could never happen.
Any thoughts on any of the above ...............sorry for the detours and ramblings and typo mistakes but am at work on my break so have to finish this random entry and only discovered this site today.
Changa Fey!
Ok a few thoughts and questions - please illuminate me if you can.
I'm quite Sikh culturally more than religiously I like the Sikh concept of Seva and its one of the least prescriptive religions although I smoke but my dad reckons thats becuase Guru Gobind Singh fell in front of a tabacco field and broke his leg and we smokers got penalised ever since - no, I think while intoxicants are seen as ok in moderation inhaling tobacco is seen as a pollutant.
Sikhism treis to avoid being prescriptive as I understand is not prescriptive around sexuality as I thought the Guru Granth Sahib says 'live the life of a householder' - i.e have a relationship and live with other people and don't go for any monastic existence because its not good for you're mind. My question is why are the marriage rituals so geared towards hetrosexuals ? I thought the whole concept of living the life of a householder did not mean that you had to be with a hetrosexual or does it. - I was always proud of Sikhism being one of the most progressive religions for that reason but a mate said thats not the case but couldn't explain it. Can you?
A few random thoughts and my experience.
I grew up inEngland til I was 15 then spent a year in India and came out there becuase it was easier!
Culturally my family in India although I'm British are well aware of homosexuality and in my Ma's village there are few queers and everyone knows who they are and who they are having relationships with - its an interdependent culture so as far as know- no-one can afford to alienate anyone, particulary boys because its sexist culture and they stay at home and girls move on.
Whether they approve or disaaprove, is homphobia much more a feature of urban life than rural. I wonder is that because a feature of urban life is more about labels or codification in all sorts ways governing social relationships in any culture- i.e all of sudden to want to say what your not and define 'normal'.
I have not seen people hiding their queerness in my grannies village. Yes I definately would say hetrosexism with a large dose of histroical muslim orthodxy defines relationships which oppress men nd women in northern Punjabi Sikhi Pindu life and caste than anything necessarily to do with sexuality. But in my grannies village- its an old ambling culture where one day is like the next, everyone farms of a particular caste and the old ones have seen it all but don't walk round judging queerness, they appreciate both a woman can bond with another and so can a man- an accetance of the dynamics of sexuality and how it change.
Like I said they are far more obsessed with caste and sexism and money than if someone is queer and then the only worry is how will they have kids.
I found my mum & dad's generation much more open about sexuality than this so called educated population that see being queer as some kind of sickness or a sin?
In a way I wonder if the non-judgemental attitude Sikhism finds it expressed in this the village context a kind of innocence and openness with many people I find there. I grew up in England and spent a year with my granny in a pind and came out far more easily than I did here where I was shit scared incase someone kicked my head in a school and where being queer had no validation in mainstream society or legally.
Were is the cross-over here religiously and culturally - So people are often suprised when I say it was easier for me to come out in a village in India in the late 70's than come out here and it was understood as being quite normal - especially as I fancied the pants of some of the Kuri's and my hormones were kicking in so i couldn't hide it. But what I find in the 21st Century is that villagers are becoming more homophobic where they weren't before? Everyone is pretty chilled out and cool apart from being obsessed about having kids.
My mum said why couldn't I find a Jatt gay man to have kids with. That could have been construed as her homophobia but really most parents regardless of sexuality gay or straight want their kids in some kind of a relationship and have off-spring- the lack of knowledge or exposure to them can be translated as being anti queer but my aunts were fascinated when I told them of the various methods d*kes use to have a babies and how many straight women are using those techniques too, being straight but choosing to have children with freinds or their sisters by passing straight men all together in terms of a relationship around the kids or having sex with them to have it. I think they thought it was great and wished they had that choice and said the have relationship with men primarily to have kids.
Unfortuantely the idea of homosexuality being a sin was introduced as far as I know by the British Raj to mirror Victorian values which made it illegal in India and thats how it entered the penal code. - so hence India took a step back even though challenges are being made to the Indian penal code in this respect in the last few years.
Another thing......are the Lama's - don't know if thats how to spell the name of the ritual- (its the one where you walk around 4 times to get married) that are performed - is it a cultural thing a man walking in front of a woman or religious. Could two men or two women do the same and would we walk togther or one in front of the other and who would tie the old knot to the towel. Is this practice of the ftaher or brother tying the not religious or cultural? Am confused - does that mean we can all have Lama's if we chose to as Queers and tell the Sikh priest find that bit in the guru Granth that says it has to be with someone of the opposit sex? we need a gay Gudwara ! Yes I know we'd be bombed by religious zealots but I met Sikh Gay Priests they tell me just how many there are knocking around in temples so could we find a few freindly ones and set one up?!
When I was little aparrantly I was just 6 years old at the time - whilst pulling on my plat I declared to my mum I anted to marry a girl and could she find one for me - an arranged marriage with a big wedding at the Gudwara! I'd like that dream to be a reality for many Gay Sikh Women - not necessarily arranged although I'm sure many women may choose that option - so we could have a few postives to grow up with and not be petrified and saddened that my fairytale of marrying my princess could never happen.
Any thoughts on any of the above ...............sorry for the detours and ramblings and typo mistakes but am at work on my break so have to finish this random entry and only discovered this site today.
Changa Fey!
