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Post by Moderator on Apr 2, 2008 15:06:24 GMT
The following messages were originally posted in the 'Introduce Yourself Please' thread, and have been moved here as the subject matter was no longer in accordance with the thread.
Apologies for the move.
Moderator
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Post by Moderator on Apr 2, 2008 15:12:12 GMT
Hi,
I am a bisexual turbaned Gursikh individual, am married and have kids. I am an educated professional, have a Ph. D. in materials science and work in the nuclear power industry. I find it offensive and am saddened by the way gay persons think about bisexuals. Bisexual behavior is not new, Greeks, Spartans in particular had bisexual relations and it was not in the closet either, it was a socially accepted behavior. There is a tribe on one of the Indonesian islands where a grown up man takes a young boy as an apprentice and teaches him various skills till the boy is old enough and gets married, they have a sexual relationship. One can Google for more precise information. Just like being gay is not by choice, it is to a some extent genetic (biological and not a choice) so is being a bisexual. I am attracted to both men and women and it just happens to be so. I have known this since I was a young boy. We may not want to face it, however, it is common knowledge or at least an awareness in India that large percentage of Sikhs and Keralites are homo/bisexual. There are taboos in our culture so most people choose to hide the fact. I have been in the US for over twenty years, however, I still would not own up to it in public. My wife knows that I am a bisexual and accepts it, I guess I am lucky. And I do not just go out and hook up with just any guy for casual sex. Yes I have had more than one gay relationship but that happens only when there is some connection at intellectual plane and the relationship is almost always first friendship before it gets into physical intimacy. It is sad that just as the gays are reviled by the society so are bisexuals reviled by most homosexuals. My friend call me Surd. |
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Post by Moderator on Apr 2, 2008 15:13:19 GMT
irrational,
I do not think there is anything wrong with being a bisexual as it is not a question of choice. What i can not accept is when people are lying just like many bisexual man are lying to their wifes and to their male partners too and they are hiding their other lives.
This is not fair at all.
When we are married we are married to one person and not more. It does not matter if we cheat with the same sex or the opposite it is still promiscuity.
You are fair with your wife because you told her that you are bisexual but it doesn't change the fact that you are engaging in adultery even if your partners know that you are married.
If it is about more than just lust it is even worse i think.
I hope you don't mind my honest words. I really didn't mean to judge you at all i just wanted to share my opinion with you. I do not question that you are well educated and a very nice guy who is spiritually inclined but with all of this i couldn't be more than a friend of yours.
I just wouldn't wanna fall in love with anybody who needs more than one partner and i really hope i will be able to avoid to get involved with people who live dual life. I assume many people think the same way as i do and that has nothing to do with offending bisexuals. |
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Post by Moderator on Apr 2, 2008 15:14:08 GMT
Sunny,
You are entitled to your opinion, however, could you please explain, how my behavior is unhealthy or EGO-FEEDING. Thanks.
Surd |
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Post by Moderator on Apr 2, 2008 15:15:07 GMT
Hi Surd,
You have said this:
"We may not want to face it, however, it is common knowledge or at least an awareness in India that large percentage of Sikhs and Keralites are homo/bisexual."
I think these Indian guys you are talking about are mainly gays not really bisexuals. They did not really choose to live a bisexual life but they were forced to do it as they were forced by the family and the society to get married. So they live the so called dual life as many gay Indians/Sikhs do it in the Western World too.
These alibi marriages are just to hide the real sexual orientation.
Actually i am quite happy you are here because you brought some life with your hot issues. At the same time you talked about Sikhi in other topics which is also good because i almost started to feel like i am in a general gay dating board. So welcome! |
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Post by Moderator on Apr 2, 2008 15:16:09 GMT
Hi Samosa and Sunny,
The question of adultery is an interesting one. Love does not mean possesion or control or a rigid osscified take on monogamy. Love that does not set itself free and does not renew itself everyday eventually kills itself. If your loved one tells you that he/she loves you so much that he/or she will die or some such nonscence, if he/ she lost you, it is either there insecurity or a cotrol mechanism pure and simple, it is any thing but love. True love sets you free knowing that you will be there for each other for life and yet are not an impediment on each others existence, gowth and fredeom. A human being can love more than one person, of course I am not saying any thing goes. Like some one said, "man is the only animal that eats without hunger, drinks without thirst and makes love throughout the year". But believe me there are no limits or boundaries in love. I hope and believe that a grownup responsible and honest individual knows in his/her heart what is right and what is wrong. All I expect from my love is respect understanding and a recoganition of my individuality, not bondage and possesiveness and certainly no control. Love or friend is the one who not only shares the happiness but is also there when chips are down.
I will recommend Erich Fromm's "Art of Loving", and books by Anaise Nin, a title of her book does not come to mind right now. I know and understand that physical part of love is important but there is much more to love than just physical. Let me ask you this that, during making love, if your partner is physiclly there with you but is thinking of some one else, what value is that to you? i would rather have him/her with the person they think of and hope I have the courage to be happy just because I love him/her and will like to see them fullfilled, my happiness and completeness and my solace is in that, because I know he/she loves me too. Nothing kills love faster than possesiveness, jealoesy and control. Tagore said that one must set ones love free and if it is true love it will come back to you. Well enough rambling will talk to you guys later. I have missed this kind of talk and interaction since I left India.
Have fun and be happy with the grace of the Great Careless One (Wadda Beparwaah), it is for a reason that he is addressed as Wadda Beparwah in Panjabi. It does not mean He does not care but cares enough to let us live our lives. Love in the same way is not concerned where you slept last night but is happy to know that you are fine.
Surd. |
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Post by Moderator on Apr 2, 2008 15:16:48 GMT
Adultery in USA is a crime for a reason ...all the pop literature in the world wont changed that.
of course its easy to speak the way you do with the anonymity of the Internet .
have you addressed your beliefs to your parents, friends .. at the Gurdwara?
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Post by Moderator on Apr 2, 2008 15:17:50 GMT
Sunny,
What to adults do in their private space is their business, it is certainly not a crime in the US, of course, if your partner finds out it is ground for divorce. I do not know where you got this information.
Well of course what I have expressed are my private thoughts, that I will discuss with close friends close friends. I neither have the need nor desire to talk about my private beliefs in a Gurudwara or any other public place. Like I told you my wife knows and so do my friends, obviously not all agree with me. My parents are too old to be burdened with my beliefs, which are certainly not mainstream.
I have no wish to convert or preach to others either or force my beliefs on some one else. It is just that I do not care for the sixteenth century morality and idea, I like to live in the present.
Surd
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Post by Moderator on Apr 2, 2008 15:18:29 GMT
I'm just one-person guy and dont need all kinds of attention from everywhere..
its seems we will never see eye to eye... and thats cool ,I dont hate just dont agree with your philosophy of Life , Love and probably not politics either LOL...SO how's the weather COLD Over here really cold but no snow yet so i guess its Ok.
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Post by Moderator on Apr 2, 2008 15:19:42 GMT
Surd,
I tend to agree with you but i just can not accept these things in my life. Way of love you are talikng about just does not work for me.
I also want to feel free in a relationship but i do not want to be free for cheating my beloved. Sex is not that important for me and i could not touch my partner knowing that he just had sex with someone else. I just can not be this free and i do not even want to be.
I am also a one boy-guy and when i am in a relationship i am in love with the person not with the feeling of love or sexual sensation he can give me. My wish to belong to someone is much stronger than the wish for constantly being in love and constantly experiencing lust.
Actually the way you speak is completely promoting lust and i do not think i have to explain to you what Sikhi say about that. You said you are a Gursikh so how can you bring these things together?
I am really interested and i am sorry we can not have this conversation eye to eye. |
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Post by Moderator on Apr 2, 2008 15:20:25 GMT
Samosa,
Finally a weekend, have some time to relax and think about esoteric things. Thanks for the welcome note, appreciate it. I do not know what makes a person bi or gay or hetro and what makes for different perceptions about fidelity, monogamy and morality. I guess it is nature and nurture both. If one took everything that is good everywhere and what is bad everywhere and put it together, there will be nothing left (not my words, forget who said this).
Guru Nanak said, 'Jit khaade tan peeriya man menh chale vikaar, Nanak so khaana khushi khuar" (food that harms my body and corrupts my mind is food that ruins my happiness) My understanding is that same is true for most other aspects of life including sexual behavior, I think most us will not willingly do anything that hurts us or is harmful and degrading.
Most Indians are conditioned to think that sex is dirty and does not exist, even in a persons bedroom. This is a serious serious problem and is reinforced by parents, relatives and society in general relentlessly. It is not sex or intimacy that is dirty it is our mindset and conditioning. To repeat a cliche, "Most Indians have more sex in their brains than in their groin" I think that is to a certain degree accurate.
Even in this day and age husband and wife do not sleep in the same room, particularly in the villages. When I was growing up in Punjab, there was no mixing of boys and girls. However, no eyebrows are raised when two young guys hangout together and can be left completely alone for any length of time. Men are free to put their arm around their buddies, hold hands and walk in public, can wear pink. I am sure if one tried that with a girl all hell will break loose. I have a pink sweater that i brought with me from India I have never put it on here in the US.
As a young man I did not know how to converse with girl, there was this tremendous mental block, it certainly was not shyness but the result of conditioning and sheer lack of interaction with girls right from childhood. Large number of youg men and boys have very close male friends and girls have girl friends. This is a situation conducive to developing close relations with friends cousins etc, of the same sex and nobody bats an eyelid. And in most cases youth and raging hormones push a young person to have intimate relationships with friends of the same sex. I do not want to hazard a guess, but a lot of young persons particularly males have their first sexual experience with someone of the same sex, that experience stays with an individual for life. It is lot easier and goes unnoticed by the parents and society in general. Another factor is the male dominance in a Panjabi house hold. Most fathers tend to be domineering and rarely have a friendly relationship with their children particularly their sons. The logic is that it will spoil the kids who do not know any better and need to be kept on a tight leash. They love their families and take good care of them, albeit maintain that aloof toughness, men are not supposed to cry, men have to be tough and strong is a common expectation. Lots of young boys seek out an affectionate relationship with a male friend to fill the void.
Humans are sensate beings and are aware of their individuality and have an existence that is separated from the rest of the nature and other beings. If one showed a mirror to a monkey the creature thinks that he is looking at another member of the group, incapable of realizing that he is looking at himself, and can not think of himself as distinctly different individual from the rest of the group. Human beings on the other hand are always painfully aware of their individuality and separateness from everything else. This can be fairly traumatic, because human nature is not different from that of other living beings and there is a strong urge to belong or connect with others. All kinds of interest groups, clubs, sports teams, old school ties, religious groups take one away from that awareness of separateness and make reasonably stable and productive existence possible. Most of us will not be caught dead sharing our innermost thoughts with an individual or group for fear of being scoffed at. Young boys lacking that close, friendly and protective relationship bond with a friend of same age or an elder male. I had an intimate friend at a tender age and we were inseparable, nobody ever thought anything of it, being found out would have been nearly fatal. To a certain extent (I think) my convictions and behavior is my rebellion against that kind of oppression. I am no psychologist but do brood a lot and read a lot about such things. I know that beliefs and behavior that I think is perfectly normal is not widely accepted, at least not in Punjabi and Sikh communities.
I had to work at thinking sex is not dirty and is normal and enjoyable activity weather it is hetro, homo, something in between, otherwise I would have died of guilt. How many of us were told that masturbation is evil, degenerate and sinful activity and yet most of young men do it any way, some with terrible feeling of shame and guilt. I guess everyone reacts differently and develops unique individual mechanism to cope with situations like that.
Getting back to lust, like I said earlier lust is out of control sexual desire, that compels grown sensible individuals to seek out sex whenever and where ever they can, and it is not exclusive to men either. Lust is mindless sex and orgies by grownup persons who can not help themselves. There is a distinct difference between that and affection and intimacy with some one you know and value as person and a human being and my belief is that it does not have to be limited to one individual. I am certainly not advocating one night stands or sex at the drop of a hat. I think we all put up our own limits and barriers at comfort level according to our nature and nurture, thats where the differences in behavior, sexual or otherwise originate from. I refuse to believe in absolutes, human beings are capable of and do love and care for more than a single individual. The degree of intimacy one takes this to, is a matter of personal choice and conditioning. I make no bones about it one way or the other. I know that this is far from lust and lewd behavior.
It's been a long ramble, I hope I made some sense and this is not been a total waste of time and energy. It is about 10.30 pm on the east cost and I am hungry and sleepy, will see you guys later.
Love to all, may Waheguru Bless Us all and Show the Way.
Surd. |
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Post by Moderator on Apr 2, 2008 15:21:16 GMT
Surd Ji,
Interesting what you say.
I think it is very important first of all to separate what comes from Punjabi culture and what is from Sikhi because these are not the same and there is a confusion around it. Not only about sexuality but everything.
What do you think about this?
Just one example. Some people say you can not be Sikh and Gay at the same time however Sikhi does not say anything about homosexuality. So where does this comes from? |
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Post by Moderator on Apr 2, 2008 15:22:10 GMT
(1) I think it is very important first of all to separate what comes from Punjabi culture and what is from Sikhi because these are not the same and there is a confusion around it. Not only about sexuality but everything.
What do you think about this?
(2)Just one example. Some people say you can not be Sikh and Gay at the same time however Sikhi does not say anything about homosexuality. So where does this comes from?
Guru Fateh All,
Samosa has brought up two points (cited above) that will forever be controversial, here's my two cents.
1. Punjab has been around a while, I am not a scholar of history/archeology etc., however, I think it will be safe to say that it has been around for 1500 years or more, that is a thousand years before Guru Nanak started Sikhism. He was born to PUNJABI HINDU PARENTS. Punjabi Culture, Punjabi Boli, Punjabi Rehan Sehan (way of living) , in short Punjabiat had been around for a while and every one living in the region was and is always a proud Punjabi regardless of the religion.
To my sensibilities Punjabiat is first, even before the religion. Punjabis are hard working, hard living and out going people who know how to enjoy life. Known for their hospitality, bravery, big hearts and sense of humor, religion does not have much to do with that. (Punjabis in general think that there is no depression or difficulty in life that can not be cured by a good SC#$W and a couple of Patiala pegs ;D  . Unfortunately Punjab was divided by the British and further subdivided because of narrow minded asinine Akalis and that has hurt Punjab and Punjabi Culture. Yet it is not as bad as we perceive, we still speak the same language, eat same food and have a Punjabi upbeat outlook on life, no matter where we live. If you ever listened to Ustaad Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan sing in Punjabi you will hear an authentic Punjabi voice even more so than that of the great K. L. Sehgal, called the golden voice of Punjab. The emotion he put in his voice and the enunciation is totally Punjabi, out of this world. it hardly matters what his religion is.
There has never been a recorded incident of inter religious hatred and communal violence between Punjabis before the British came to India. It is an established historical fact that British had Mullans, Pujarees and Bhaijis of Gurudawaras on their pay roll to spread hatred between the different religions. Divided people are easy to subjugate. Oh yeh! one will say how the Mughals wreaked havoc on us. Yes but that was by outsiders and not by Punjabis themselves and Mughal tyranny was for a single purpose of getting as much wealth as they could take out of India, they did not bother about people's religions. There are recorded incidents of Afghans and Moguls looting and plundering all and any, including Punjabi Musalmaan that came in their way. There also instances of Punjabis fighting to defend themselves from the Abdalis of their time, Musalmaans Punjabees included.
In December 1588 the great Muslim Sufi saint of Lahore, Hazrat Mian Mir, who was a close friend of Guru Arjan Dev Ji, initiated the construction of the golden temple by laying the first foundation stone (December 1588 AD). So it was a 'MUSALMAN PUNJABI' that started the construction of our holiest of the holy shrines. The Sikh Gurus had close Musalmaan friends, and that was true for the general populace of Punjab also. Pujabis have always been like brothers to each other, religion had no bearing on it.
Guru Nanak's friends and traveling companions were Bhai Bala , a Hindu Panjabi and Bhai Mardana, a Musalmaan Punjabi. All older paintings of Guru Nanak are almost always painted with Bala and Mardana at his side unfortunately both of them have disappeared from the later modern paintings of Guru Nanak. Even the great Sikh artist Sobha Singh chose to paint Guru Nanak alone, that painting is very popular and a lot of Sikh households have reprint, it is a pity indeed. Descendants of Bhai Mardana live in Pakistan and have kept up the family tradition of Guru's Kirtan. Few years ago they came to visit Harmandar Sahib, The keepers of the faith, Gursikh Gentlemen inchage of managing the Temple did not give them the permission to perform Keertan in the Harimandar Sahib. It is a shame for crying out loud, that we the Sikh Punjabees have forgotten our Punjaabiat and did not let the descendants of the companion and friend of Guru Nanak perform Kirtan in the Darbar Sahib, what else is sacrilege (women are also denied this privilege wonder why) Maharajah Ranjit Singh had Musalmaan Prime Minister (Fakir Azizudin if I remember right) his personal vaid (physician) was also a Musalmaan.
Even today there are close relationships between Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs. Inter faith marriages are not uncommon, in Punjabi it is called "Roti Beti di Sanjh". There is no taboo for same cast interfaith marriage in the same cast, inter cast marriages within the religion are few and far between and still a taboo. During the 1984 riots, Sikhs were attacked by Hindus all over India, however, not a single incidenct like this in Punjab. I could go on citing the unsikhi (without maryada) behavior of the Sikhs, I really should stop.
Well purpose of this long ramble was to say that Punjabi culture that was followed by the Sikh Gurus (Sabbhey saanjhiwal sadayan, koi na disse baahra jeeo) have been given up by the Sikhs, not as much by other Punjabis. That is why we see the differences in Sikhs and other Punjabis. We have pushed Sindhi Sikhs and Hinu Punjabi Sehajdharee Sikhs (which means almost all moderates) out of the religion to what end, we have a much smaller Punjab and less support from other Punjabis. This is not what the Gurus taught us. However, the individuals that have the responsibility of leading the believers and the religion are only self serving scoundrels who are after power and money, they don't even know first thing about Sikhism and do not give a damn. I assume most of the group members grew up in England and probably see big differences between Punjabis of different faiths. I do not blame them, because they will not understand this unless they go back to their roots and seriously study Sikhism and Punjab culture.
(2) My thoughts on the second point by Sobiji can be summed up in three words, "IT IS IRRELEVANT". A Sikh is a Sikh because of his Virsa (being born a Sikh, also means cultural background or legacy), thoughts beliefs and actions (kehni and karni), it never had will never have any thing to do with being lesbian, gay, bi or transe sexual. No religion that I know of has ever sanctioned gay lifestyle. There are few fringe Christians denominations that now accept it because of their social awareness and simply march of the time. We also need to forget about wasting time with the ultra orthodox zealots and concentrate on social efforts toward acceptability, once that happens religious acceptance will be a moot point.
In conclusion I can not help but say what I have been told by more than one intelectual. Guru Nanak said, "Na ko Hindu na ko Musalman. (there are no true Hindus and no true Musalmaans). If the Guru was here today he will add, "Na ko Sikh". (there are no true Sikhs either)
Bhul Chuk Maaf.
May Waheguru bless us all
Love
Surd
PS
Can someone please tell me how to get the cursor to blink while typing, when you are staring at the ceiling for a few minutes and come back to the screen, it is terribly hard to know where the cursor is. Thanks. |
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Post by Moderator on Apr 2, 2008 15:23:38 GMT
Surd Ji,
Thanks for taking the time for the explanation. I think it can be useful for all of us.
Could you please tell me what can be a solution for the situation of Sikh/Punjabi youth? In your earlier post you perfectly described the issues they are dealing with along their psycho-sexual development in their teenage/adolescence.
Thanks,
Samosa |
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Post by Moderator on Apr 2, 2008 15:26:07 GMT
Ok I may not be pressurized to say that I am not a layman but let me be honest and genuine that I am not a layman… please don’t give me benefit of doubt since I am up with one wine of bottle … I’ve done enough globetrotting … most of the cultures are uniform and quite different from our diverse culture what we have in our Sikh community (with the numerous of sub Sikh sects within the spectrum) … let’s not talk about whole of Indian scenario for sure since it’s a lot more broader as compared to one community which don’t want to be the part of Indian republic due to some political and constitutional reasons …well at the end of the day we talk about ethics like trimming, or not wearing karah (since rest of the ‘kakkars’ aren’t famous with 90% of us laymen…lol) well if we go to the scientific and metaphysical and supernatural spiritual depth of our cultural concept dose anybody knows that Guru Nanak Dev Ji have mentioned about ‘big bang theory’ (how the universe started off) in ‘Japji Sahib’? nope but he has …. And according to science as well (source: discover channel documentary) earlier there were female gender was the only creature and the one with more virile part became ‘today’s worlds men’ and used to mate with the ‘more effimate counterparts’ …its still in the modern day experiment that a certain species of fish (I forgot the name) that if in an aquarium a male fish is taken out and then the most biggest size fish slowly changes her attributes and take the role of male counterpart and even the biological change of her body color into blue takes place and ultimately she takes the role of male gender … my dears u know how, what and how much deep creatures these fishes are… thanks to their subtle nature they have this tendency to penetrate into any depth … it’s a well known feng shui and vastu facts that if u sit in front of an aquarium it gives peace to ur heart … Whilst it proves the depth of one species towards another living species well at the end of the day guys every spirituality and the knowledge of sgaes who have meditated upon the realizing various facets of life conclude that more pure heart and pure love for humanity u have helps u in deeply penetrating into more complex riddles of life. Man that means at the end of the day all matters is pure flow of love ..let it be any gender from any species …dose it matter.. because at the end of the day it making ur life more changed and meaningful…and ultimately we can achieve ‘moksha’ while following the the sikh principles and and our heart as well… purely ..what is wrong with it …. The only wrong thingh is having shallow prejudices about being a ‘kesadhari’ and ‘sahajdhari’…. Ufff let us all grow in our minds… |
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. Unfortunately Punjab was divided by the British and further subdivided because of narrow minded asinine Akalis and that has hurt Punjab and Punjabi Culture. Yet it is not as bad as we perceive, we still speak the same language, eat same food and have a Punjabi upbeat outlook on life, no matter where we live. If you ever listened to Ustaad Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan sing in Punjabi you will hear an authentic Punjabi voice even more so than that of the great K. L. Sehgal, called the golden voice of Punjab. The emotion he put in his voice and the enunciation is totally Punjabi, out of this world. it hardly matters what his religion is. 
Whilst it proves the depth of one species towards another living species