Post by singhsahib on Jun 18, 2008 17:07:44 GMT
Initially please forgive because this is not my writing, it is one of a very learned Sikh. I think this raises the bar as regards to this topic because so far all it has been is opinion and comment and by no means intellectual.
This is a collection of answers (unedited) of this person being asked specificaly about homosexuality and its links to and the concept of Laavan and Grhist in Sikhi.
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1. I doubt that homosexuality was a consideration when the Sikh Gurus gave us their teachings. Frankly speaking, it was probably the least of anyone's concerns, especially by the time of the 10th Master, due to our need to battle for our very survival as Sikhs. I think what you are REALLY asking is why current Punjabi /Indian culture (not to mention various segments of Western culture)doesn't condone or address homosexuality. I think homosexuality has yet to be addressed by Sikhs at a sangat or larger Sikh community level. Perhaps that is OK, but since I am not gay, I cannot say for certain. The only way homosexuality will be addressed is if folks choose to push it into the open in some way.
2. If one cannot see God in all, one cannot see God at all. Sikhi teaches us that we can never know the limits of the Creator, His mind, His ways, or His Plan. So if you feel you were born gay, then indeed, that is how God made you, no matter what anyone else says. Those who criticize for your sexuality criticize the Creator who molded you and all of us, to paraphrase the shabd by Kabir (Aval Allah Noor Upa-i-aa). Why you were born gay can be theorized and wondered about, but it is useless to wonder at God's ways on this or a host of other things.
3. Marriage is about your relationship to Guru. Those who circle the Guru Marry the Guru, and Guru brought the two together. So now it is about the two peoples' relationship to Guru as ONE. Guru Ram Das wrote the Lavan for his own wedding to Bibi Bhani Kaur. I think Siri Guru Granth Sahib PRESUMES marriage between man & woman, but does not, so far as I have read, EXPLICITLY mandate it.
There is another point I'd like to make about the reaction of many in our extended community to homosexuality. Guru Gobind Singh gave us the Rehit and our form and never said squat about our sexuality. Moreover, who gives any sangat or bhai sahib or jethadar the authority to say So & So cannot bow before Guru or live as Sikh because of his or her sexuality (or color, or race, or gender, etc!)? Guru Teg Bahadur died on behalf of a Hindu's right to worship as Hindu. Sikhs do not evangelize; we believe strongly that each person has a right to worship the Creator as he/she chooses. So, by extension, we should not close our temple doors when a gay person chooses to bow before Siri Guru, otherwise we would go against all the sacrifices that have been made so we could live as Sikhs today!
4. I think IN THEORY that, yes, it possible to have same sex marriages before the Guru. Whether a sangat or officiating bhai sahib would actually allow it is another matter.
5. Sikhs are not mandated to go forth and multiply (as the Bible says to Christians). Guru gave us a faith in which we could be liberated and still be householders, rather than become meditative ascetics as the only way to be liberated. And there are SO many orphaned children who need parents, so what is the big deal if two people cannot bear their own children for whatever reason? Is bloodline that important in a child when their Spirit and Soul still need nurturing? Remember that Guru Ram Das Ji was an ORPHAN.
The Sikh path has four pillars: bani, bana, simran, & seva.
6. We are not always the same gender from lifetime to lifetime, and while some souls reincarnate as non-humans, most do not. The gender (and species, where applicable) of any soul is a part of the karms that a soul has. Karm is cause & effect. As you sow, so shall you reap from lifetime to lifetime. So being gay could well be a karm. Most of us have had equal numbers of lifetimes as men and as women.
7. As for being gay because of "remnants" of past lifetimes, I think it is highly possible, since that is how karms function. The question for you to ask yourself is: what does it matter now that I am here? There may be a lesson for you, there may not be. Meditation on the Naam will help you find out for yourself and help you be true to all that you are. I say this because I would rather see a person happy and out than unhappy and in the closet because they cannot 'overcome' who and what they are. Perhaps their lesson in life is to fully accept themselves as the Creator made them, and love their differences as well as the differences in those around them. Living in ANY kind of duality goes against our birthright to learn to live in the One as One.
8. Siri Guru Granth tells us that those that (think) they know God don't know Him at all. Don't presume to understand God's plan about population control or why there are gay people. It is a waste of your precious time.
9. Family size is not mandated in Siri Guru Granth and it should be a personal decision between the parents wishing to raise a family. To my knowledge, Gurbani doesn't recommend family size either; Gurbani DOES say that whatever the size of your family, we should not be so attached to family members that we forget we are here to remember Waheguru. Yes, it is selfish if someone takes on the responsibility of children and then blows it off intentionally. Accidents and illnesses can cause the same effect, but I'm talking about people who are not there for their children because they choose not to be for some reason or another. We are in an Age where we CAN control to some extent our family size and family obligations so as to ensure that everyone is cared for.
10. I think it is time you got yourself a Siri Guru Granth Sahib and did a Sehej Paath (in English or both Gurmukhi & English) so you can see for yourself what Gurbani says (if you have not aleady done so). I think you will not find it so difficult to follow. Dr. Sant Singh's translation is pretty straightforward and free of the floweriness of Manmohan Singh's English version. However, if you are a Punjabi speaker/reader, then Manmohan Singh's also offers a Punjabi explanation next to the Gurmukhi.
Then you can answer these questions for yourself. I am halfway through Siri Guru in and don't recall ANYTHING explicit about homosexuality at all. Siri Guru talks about being attached to wife, brother, sons, relatives and that this is the danger; that we define ourselves by our attachment to family (who do not go with us when we die) rather than attach to Waheguru. It does not mean don't LOVE your family, it does mean have a neutral mind and remember that even family is a gift of Waheguru, not something to OWN.
-----------------------------------------------------------
If anyone has anything to add to this please feel free to do so.
This is a collection of answers (unedited) of this person being asked specificaly about homosexuality and its links to and the concept of Laavan and Grhist in Sikhi.
----------------------------------------------------------
1. I doubt that homosexuality was a consideration when the Sikh Gurus gave us their teachings. Frankly speaking, it was probably the least of anyone's concerns, especially by the time of the 10th Master, due to our need to battle for our very survival as Sikhs. I think what you are REALLY asking is why current Punjabi /Indian culture (not to mention various segments of Western culture)doesn't condone or address homosexuality. I think homosexuality has yet to be addressed by Sikhs at a sangat or larger Sikh community level. Perhaps that is OK, but since I am not gay, I cannot say for certain. The only way homosexuality will be addressed is if folks choose to push it into the open in some way.
2. If one cannot see God in all, one cannot see God at all. Sikhi teaches us that we can never know the limits of the Creator, His mind, His ways, or His Plan. So if you feel you were born gay, then indeed, that is how God made you, no matter what anyone else says. Those who criticize for your sexuality criticize the Creator who molded you and all of us, to paraphrase the shabd by Kabir (Aval Allah Noor Upa-i-aa). Why you were born gay can be theorized and wondered about, but it is useless to wonder at God's ways on this or a host of other things.
3. Marriage is about your relationship to Guru. Those who circle the Guru Marry the Guru, and Guru brought the two together. So now it is about the two peoples' relationship to Guru as ONE. Guru Ram Das wrote the Lavan for his own wedding to Bibi Bhani Kaur. I think Siri Guru Granth Sahib PRESUMES marriage between man & woman, but does not, so far as I have read, EXPLICITLY mandate it.
There is another point I'd like to make about the reaction of many in our extended community to homosexuality. Guru Gobind Singh gave us the Rehit and our form and never said squat about our sexuality. Moreover, who gives any sangat or bhai sahib or jethadar the authority to say So & So cannot bow before Guru or live as Sikh because of his or her sexuality (or color, or race, or gender, etc!)? Guru Teg Bahadur died on behalf of a Hindu's right to worship as Hindu. Sikhs do not evangelize; we believe strongly that each person has a right to worship the Creator as he/she chooses. So, by extension, we should not close our temple doors when a gay person chooses to bow before Siri Guru, otherwise we would go against all the sacrifices that have been made so we could live as Sikhs today!
4. I think IN THEORY that, yes, it possible to have same sex marriages before the Guru. Whether a sangat or officiating bhai sahib would actually allow it is another matter.
5. Sikhs are not mandated to go forth and multiply (as the Bible says to Christians). Guru gave us a faith in which we could be liberated and still be householders, rather than become meditative ascetics as the only way to be liberated. And there are SO many orphaned children who need parents, so what is the big deal if two people cannot bear their own children for whatever reason? Is bloodline that important in a child when their Spirit and Soul still need nurturing? Remember that Guru Ram Das Ji was an ORPHAN.
The Sikh path has four pillars: bani, bana, simran, & seva.
6. We are not always the same gender from lifetime to lifetime, and while some souls reincarnate as non-humans, most do not. The gender (and species, where applicable) of any soul is a part of the karms that a soul has. Karm is cause & effect. As you sow, so shall you reap from lifetime to lifetime. So being gay could well be a karm. Most of us have had equal numbers of lifetimes as men and as women.
7. As for being gay because of "remnants" of past lifetimes, I think it is highly possible, since that is how karms function. The question for you to ask yourself is: what does it matter now that I am here? There may be a lesson for you, there may not be. Meditation on the Naam will help you find out for yourself and help you be true to all that you are. I say this because I would rather see a person happy and out than unhappy and in the closet because they cannot 'overcome' who and what they are. Perhaps their lesson in life is to fully accept themselves as the Creator made them, and love their differences as well as the differences in those around them. Living in ANY kind of duality goes against our birthright to learn to live in the One as One.
8. Siri Guru Granth tells us that those that (think) they know God don't know Him at all. Don't presume to understand God's plan about population control or why there are gay people. It is a waste of your precious time.
9. Family size is not mandated in Siri Guru Granth and it should be a personal decision between the parents wishing to raise a family. To my knowledge, Gurbani doesn't recommend family size either; Gurbani DOES say that whatever the size of your family, we should not be so attached to family members that we forget we are here to remember Waheguru. Yes, it is selfish if someone takes on the responsibility of children and then blows it off intentionally. Accidents and illnesses can cause the same effect, but I'm talking about people who are not there for their children because they choose not to be for some reason or another. We are in an Age where we CAN control to some extent our family size and family obligations so as to ensure that everyone is cared for.
10. I think it is time you got yourself a Siri Guru Granth Sahib and did a Sehej Paath (in English or both Gurmukhi & English) so you can see for yourself what Gurbani says (if you have not aleady done so). I think you will not find it so difficult to follow. Dr. Sant Singh's translation is pretty straightforward and free of the floweriness of Manmohan Singh's English version. However, if you are a Punjabi speaker/reader, then Manmohan Singh's also offers a Punjabi explanation next to the Gurmukhi.
Then you can answer these questions for yourself. I am halfway through Siri Guru in and don't recall ANYTHING explicit about homosexuality at all. Siri Guru talks about being attached to wife, brother, sons, relatives and that this is the danger; that we define ourselves by our attachment to family (who do not go with us when we die) rather than attach to Waheguru. It does not mean don't LOVE your family, it does mean have a neutral mind and remember that even family is a gift of Waheguru, not something to OWN.
-----------------------------------------------------------
If anyone has anything to add to this please feel free to do so.